When I first got on the lesbian dating scene, I felt like all of the folks I was attracted to were attracted to two things: brunettes or gym dykes. I am neither. Everyone I dated broke up with me for some raven-haired angel with killer lats and Gymshark leggings. I told myself that I’d be alone forever because I’m just not what “most lesbians” are looking for. It hurts to find out that your presentation (which is soooo deeply personal and meaningful) isn’t someone’s cup of tea - and it sucks so much when it seemingly happens over and over with multiple people. Definitely agree with the advice to step away from dating if it’s hurting your self-esteem! Confidence is sooo attractive - once I got out of my head about what people thought of my looks, I found someone who had been looking everywhere for me.
As a side note, every masc I’ve dated has desperately wanted to be topped, so there is definitely one out there who has carpal tunnel from a million pillow princess encounters and is dying to find you, letter writer.
As a masc4masc stone bottom, I want to affirm to the letter writer that your people are definitely out there! I too identify as both butch and transmasc. Also, as someone with a pretty niche dating pool, something I take comfort from is that new people are figuring themselves out all the time. Queer people often hit certain life and relationship "milestones" a bit later in life than straight people, it makes sense that queer people with particularly specific intersections of gender and sexuality (including things like stoneness) would hit those milestones even later. It takes time to figure things out, like it did for you! Sure many people might be monogamously coupled up at 32. But many of those people will also later uncouple, and I think that masc4masc folks on the stone spectrum are particularly likely to do so, given how long it can take to figure that stuff out. In a sense, our dating pools are only getting bigger as we get older.
I also want to echo the point that Maddy and other commenters have made about connection being rare in general. I personally have rejected and/or let things fizzle with people for many varied reasons that were completely unrelated to how attracted to them I was. When I feel tempted to ascribe all rejection of me to something about myself that I already feel insecure about, I try to remember that.
“tentmates“ and “lesbian farmers“ is so apt and hilarious! You are so adept at untangling the nuances of our queer milieu. Thank you for pushing back gently on "butch-femme as standard or norm," i feel like plenty of femmes I know who are into butches could have written a very similar version of this letter. I 100% agree with you that connection is rare and IMO we tend to see scarcity of the thing we want and look for other explanations besides just "connection is rare."
Just want to say to the letter writer that as a femme for femme, I can relate. Solidarity. I happen to know quite a few people in my life who are very much masc for masc. I hope you can meet some too.
Edit now that I've properly read Maddy's response, I 1000% cosign that finding casual sex takes a surprisingly high amount of effort. Even my cishet women friends with fairly standard sexual interests and broad pools of men to whom they are attracted complain about this. It can be harder than finding someone to seriously date, in some ways.
Here to say in solidarity - dating when you are having trauma reactions (big nervous system stuff) is so so hard. For me, dating is always the most fun and transformative when I can hear myself. My body reactions are my compass and they wanna keep me safe. I get lonely and wanna have sex but I know I can't go down that path right now. It's okay because I'm loving myself in other ways right now. You will too <3 Reading Pleasure Activism or creating in a way you love might help in the meantime. We love you and we need you!
duuude the masc4masc struggle on apps is real, but maddy’s advice is true. most mascs i know are more prone to social anxiety at least when it comes to *cultivating online presence* , so meeting them irl is probably your best bet. especially thru friend networks or hobbies that might attract masc leaning queers.
i’ve found that once you find a couple mascs, there are many more nearby in the social web.
also hard seconding the comments that mention an unusually high proportion of mascs desperately seeking to be topped. we are out there lol! i think it also has to do with the whole mascs being treated with less emotional care thing, like we just wanna be loved and little spooned sometimes. we are remarkably competent, but we would like to not have to be. there are tons of mascs out here who’d like to let go of the reigns for a little while in love and in bed.
imo, once you’ve found some time / space / friends to focus on what makes you feel more whole, see, and fulfillingly embodied as a butch, there will be many thirsty masc bottoms waiting for a self assured stone butch top to come around.
also, i grew up around SO many lesbians (especially in semirural areas) and the number of butch4butch couples that fly under the radar is crazy. they’re out there! just highly invisible-ized by mainstream media unless there’s some movie about a sweet nerdy kid with an absurd niche hobby (rubik’s cube champion? dart frog breeding maybe?) who happens to have 2 extremely supportive butch lesbian moms and like four large dogs.
Also a trauma response: going through situations and dismantling them, trying to figure out exactly what went wrong in order to protect yourself...such as the laundry list of possible femme preferences in LW's submission!
I definitely feel a lot of sympathy for LW; this is a difficult headspace to be in. I'm an agender person who aims for androgyny (and I have a lot to say on that subject, but!), and seeing the "looking for femmes"/"looking for mascs" posts and profiles on repeat can be draining. It's also hard when people, even like LW, lump androgyny in with "some flavor of masculine" because of broken assumptions about androgyny in our culture. I share this to illustrate that, just like all the other commenters, many of us feel this pressure? Inadequacy? Mismatch? Between ourselves and what's considered desirable, no matter where we're coming from on the presentation/gender spectrum.
Maddy's advice was spot on: situationships are not "relationship/responsibility/effort lite," and if you feel terrible trying to date, it's a sign you're not ready right now.
"tentmates"....."small improv lesbian".....Maddy why are you so good at these descriptions haha
This person's situation sounds really hard!! I (a low femme) had an ex (a transmasc) who, after we broke up, immediately got together with another femme, and they'd gotten together with me immediately out of a relationship with yet another femme... Not the same as your situation, but it made me feel super crazy and like I was just a replaceable femme to them, and also made me feel resentful of their position in the dating scene in my city as a thin white transmasc who's good at topping. It took me a while to untangle that, in fact, I never really wanted to wind up with this person and they have many dating struggles of their own that I do not envy. I took a year to be single and am now in the femme4femme relationship of my dreams. I guess my point is, it can be useful to have some clear-eyed analysis of how various elements of identity can set up dating to be easier for one person than another, but that can veer so easily into unchecked resentment or dwelling in hurt from rejection by someone you don't even really want to be with. Also....I second Maddy's advice about Grindr lol.
I forgot that low femme is an option, so I've been describing myself as "schleppy femme" for YEARS. Initially when I decided to respond to this one, I realized this could really veer into top shortage/butch privilege discourse, but it all just gets so weedy. I think I cut this part where I was like...there are so many different mascs.
As always, I love this note from you <3 I have been following along the Val's Insta and feeling so inspired. This part really nails it for me:
"I guess my point is, it can be useful to have some clear-eyed analysis of how various elements of identity can set up dating to be easier for one person than another, but that can veer so easily into unchecked resentment or dwelling in hurt from rejection by someone you don't even really want to be with"
Haha always wise to steer clear of top shortage/butch privilege discourse… also just thought that you might like to know that when your advice column comes out, clover and I will read it out loud to each other over breakfast and talk about what advice we would give the person (and are always like Maddy’s advice is better lol)
When I first got on the lesbian dating scene, I felt like all of the folks I was attracted to were attracted to two things: brunettes or gym dykes. I am neither. Everyone I dated broke up with me for some raven-haired angel with killer lats and Gymshark leggings. I told myself that I’d be alone forever because I’m just not what “most lesbians” are looking for. It hurts to find out that your presentation (which is soooo deeply personal and meaningful) isn’t someone’s cup of tea - and it sucks so much when it seemingly happens over and over with multiple people. Definitely agree with the advice to step away from dating if it’s hurting your self-esteem! Confidence is sooo attractive - once I got out of my head about what people thought of my looks, I found someone who had been looking everywhere for me.
As a side note, every masc I’ve dated has desperately wanted to be topped, so there is definitely one out there who has carpal tunnel from a million pillow princess encounters and is dying to find you, letter writer.
As a masc4masc stone bottom, I want to affirm to the letter writer that your people are definitely out there! I too identify as both butch and transmasc. Also, as someone with a pretty niche dating pool, something I take comfort from is that new people are figuring themselves out all the time. Queer people often hit certain life and relationship "milestones" a bit later in life than straight people, it makes sense that queer people with particularly specific intersections of gender and sexuality (including things like stoneness) would hit those milestones even later. It takes time to figure things out, like it did for you! Sure many people might be monogamously coupled up at 32. But many of those people will also later uncouple, and I think that masc4masc folks on the stone spectrum are particularly likely to do so, given how long it can take to figure that stuff out. In a sense, our dating pools are only getting bigger as we get older.
I also want to echo the point that Maddy and other commenters have made about connection being rare in general. I personally have rejected and/or let things fizzle with people for many varied reasons that were completely unrelated to how attracted to them I was. When I feel tempted to ascribe all rejection of me to something about myself that I already feel insecure about, I try to remember that.
“tentmates“ and “lesbian farmers“ is so apt and hilarious! You are so adept at untangling the nuances of our queer milieu. Thank you for pushing back gently on "butch-femme as standard or norm," i feel like plenty of femmes I know who are into butches could have written a very similar version of this letter. I 100% agree with you that connection is rare and IMO we tend to see scarcity of the thing we want and look for other explanations besides just "connection is rare."
Just want to say to the letter writer that as a femme for femme, I can relate. Solidarity. I happen to know quite a few people in my life who are very much masc for masc. I hope you can meet some too.
Edit now that I've properly read Maddy's response, I 1000% cosign that finding casual sex takes a surprisingly high amount of effort. Even my cishet women friends with fairly standard sexual interests and broad pools of men to whom they are attracted complain about this. It can be harder than finding someone to seriously date, in some ways.
Yes totally!!
Here to say in solidarity - dating when you are having trauma reactions (big nervous system stuff) is so so hard. For me, dating is always the most fun and transformative when I can hear myself. My body reactions are my compass and they wanna keep me safe. I get lonely and wanna have sex but I know I can't go down that path right now. It's okay because I'm loving myself in other ways right now. You will too <3 Reading Pleasure Activism or creating in a way you love might help in the meantime. We love you and we need you!
duuude the masc4masc struggle on apps is real, but maddy’s advice is true. most mascs i know are more prone to social anxiety at least when it comes to *cultivating online presence* , so meeting them irl is probably your best bet. especially thru friend networks or hobbies that might attract masc leaning queers.
i’ve found that once you find a couple mascs, there are many more nearby in the social web.
also hard seconding the comments that mention an unusually high proportion of mascs desperately seeking to be topped. we are out there lol! i think it also has to do with the whole mascs being treated with less emotional care thing, like we just wanna be loved and little spooned sometimes. we are remarkably competent, but we would like to not have to be. there are tons of mascs out here who’d like to let go of the reigns for a little while in love and in bed.
imo, once you’ve found some time / space / friends to focus on what makes you feel more whole, see, and fulfillingly embodied as a butch, there will be many thirsty masc bottoms waiting for a self assured stone butch top to come around.
also, i grew up around SO many lesbians (especially in semirural areas) and the number of butch4butch couples that fly under the radar is crazy. they’re out there! just highly invisible-ized by mainstream media unless there’s some movie about a sweet nerdy kid with an absurd niche hobby (rubik’s cube champion? dart frog breeding maybe?) who happens to have 2 extremely supportive butch lesbian moms and like four large dogs.
wow yes!! I love this comment :')
Also a trauma response: going through situations and dismantling them, trying to figure out exactly what went wrong in order to protect yourself...such as the laundry list of possible femme preferences in LW's submission!
I definitely feel a lot of sympathy for LW; this is a difficult headspace to be in. I'm an agender person who aims for androgyny (and I have a lot to say on that subject, but!), and seeing the "looking for femmes"/"looking for mascs" posts and profiles on repeat can be draining. It's also hard when people, even like LW, lump androgyny in with "some flavor of masculine" because of broken assumptions about androgyny in our culture. I share this to illustrate that, just like all the other commenters, many of us feel this pressure? Inadequacy? Mismatch? Between ourselves and what's considered desirable, no matter where we're coming from on the presentation/gender spectrum.
Maddy's advice was spot on: situationships are not "relationship/responsibility/effort lite," and if you feel terrible trying to date, it's a sign you're not ready right now.
gently, and with love: "butch4butch booms" is an adorable typo
"tentmates"....."small improv lesbian".....Maddy why are you so good at these descriptions haha
This person's situation sounds really hard!! I (a low femme) had an ex (a transmasc) who, after we broke up, immediately got together with another femme, and they'd gotten together with me immediately out of a relationship with yet another femme... Not the same as your situation, but it made me feel super crazy and like I was just a replaceable femme to them, and also made me feel resentful of their position in the dating scene in my city as a thin white transmasc who's good at topping. It took me a while to untangle that, in fact, I never really wanted to wind up with this person and they have many dating struggles of their own that I do not envy. I took a year to be single and am now in the femme4femme relationship of my dreams. I guess my point is, it can be useful to have some clear-eyed analysis of how various elements of identity can set up dating to be easier for one person than another, but that can veer so easily into unchecked resentment or dwelling in hurt from rejection by someone you don't even really want to be with. Also....I second Maddy's advice about Grindr lol.
I forgot that low femme is an option, so I've been describing myself as "schleppy femme" for YEARS. Initially when I decided to respond to this one, I realized this could really veer into top shortage/butch privilege discourse, but it all just gets so weedy. I think I cut this part where I was like...there are so many different mascs.
As always, I love this note from you <3 I have been following along the Val's Insta and feeling so inspired. This part really nails it for me:
"I guess my point is, it can be useful to have some clear-eyed analysis of how various elements of identity can set up dating to be easier for one person than another, but that can veer so easily into unchecked resentment or dwelling in hurt from rejection by someone you don't even really want to be with"
would love to read a missive about top shortage/butch privilege discourse at some point 👀
Haha always wise to steer clear of top shortage/butch privilege discourse… also just thought that you might like to know that when your advice column comes out, clover and I will read it out loud to each other over breakfast and talk about what advice we would give the person (and are always like Maddy’s advice is better lol)